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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is a rather lenghty post i found on r6-forum.com. I believe this story has many solid facts and points made about god and science. although I personally side with the professor's argument, I also respect the student's POV.

" 'God' vs. Science "

An atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'

'Yes sir,' the student says.

'So you believe in God?'

'Absolutely. '

'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes'

'Are you good or evil?'

'The Bible says I'm evil..'


The professor grins knowingly.

'Aha! The Bible!

He considers for a moment.

'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good...!'

'I wouldn't say that.'

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent.


'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. 'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'

'Er..yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?'

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'

The student falters. 'From God'

'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'

'Yes, sir.'

'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

’Yes'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then is evil.'

Again, the student has no answer.

'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'

The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'

'So who created them?'

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question.


'Who created them?' There is still no answer.


Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.

'Tell me,' he continues onto another student.

'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'

The student's voice betrays him and cracks..

'Yes, professor, I do.'

The professor stops pacing.

'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir. I've never seen Him.'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'

'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?'

'Yes'


'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his own.

'Professor, is there such thing as heat?'

' Yes'.

'And is there such a thing as cold?'

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student ,obviously interested.

The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to exlain.


'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat,unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit down to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester.

'So what point are you making, young man?'

'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time.

'Flawed? Can you explain how?'

'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.' 'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.'

'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.'

The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?'

The class breaks out into laughter.

'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.' 'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'

Now uncertain, the professor responds,

'Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down.
 

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That's brilliant! Why couldn't I have been there! Pure genius! Great find Tibbs! I'm assuming you go to church? You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

But I wholeheartedly agree with that student, and have used this argument (without the brain thing, which I will remember now :D) countless times.

I also think that each and every person is entitled to their opinion, and I personally have outgrown the need for other people to see things my way. So you won't hear any disrespectful "combacks" from my corner, if somebody from a different viewpoint were to speak up.

I think this can be a great discussion, but knowing how things go on forums, I think we should lay some ground rules, no?

1.) This forum is a place for respectful freedom of expression, so no name calling, no slander, no disrespectful banter.

2.) All people are entitled to his/her opinion, and at the end of the day, no matter how hard you believe your opinion to be the ULTIMATE truth, it still remains your opinion, and people can choose to adopt it, or reject it. That doesn't mean they are "good" or "bad" people. So if you have to, agree to disagree....

3.) I am not a mod, so if you don't agree with my rules, disregard them, AND tell a Mod, I'm sure Felix is going to love this one, eh? :p
 

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hahaha I love it. But I would've punched the professor in the kisser for questioning my faith aloud. Thats a personal thing right?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
now dont take this the wrong way...but if i was the professor i would have said (after he brought up the brain) one of these 2 following questions... 1) So, do you want to carve open my f*cking skull to see and taste my brain? or 2) After what you have just implied, the same could be said for you, are you claiming that you lack a brain? or that you are an extent of "God" himself?
 

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You know what I was about to go ape shit half way down the thread, till the student made freaking valid points. bravo bravo!!!

I honestly don't care if people believe in god, science, or any other thing. Just don't force me to believe what you believe.

I believe in God! Jesus is my home boy!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Delta107 said:
What happened to his finger?
at this point my brain is telling me to make a very rude comment about priests and lil boys and things of that order...but i will refrain.



spooph said:
That's brilliant! Why couldn't I have been there! Pure genius! Great find Tibbs! I'm assuming you go to church? You don't have to answer if you don't want to.
i am a atheist and am proud to be one. the greatest phrase i can use to sum-up this topic is this: "The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
 

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I'm actually always in a conversation about religion or lack of there of because of the lifestyle I live, but I liked this post a lot. Maybe something I will use in the future.
 

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Tibbs, thats an awsome conversation and I would have loved to have seen the Professors self importance slowly shattered!!

Personally, I question the existance of God, I have seen too many family members ravaged by sickness to believe in the all-loving and caring being that looks after all souls. But then I can't discount it either as there are too many things that are unexplained that can only explained as a divine miracle! I know that's basically sitting on the fence, but thats me!!

I believe in the hard cold facts of the universe, and the physical proof that has shown our evolution through the ages. Until someone can show me the garden of eden and the remains of Adam and Eve, then we will see.
 

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Oh man, the student's arguments had more holes than swiss cheese. But that means holes don't exist - they are merely the absence of cheese! :)
 

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Hahaha nice one Aysee.

One other thing to consider, in any argument, the human mind can be persuaded either way with correct use of language. I used to sell cars, and had some very interesting techniques in 'convincing' people to buy a car.

Oh and just for the record I know I've got a brain, I've seen it come out my nose and ears :D

Felix



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what do you get when you cross an atheist dad with a dyslexic mom?
kids who grow up to not believe in dogs....
 

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With a greek orth.mom and an irish protastant grandmother. It was religion wars growing up . so count me out :)

We could have been our own reality show.!! So I am sticking with crows. CAW!
 

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zartan said:
With a greek orth.mom and an irish protastant grandmother. It was religion wars growing up . so count me out :)

We could have been our own reality show.!! So I am sticking with crows. CAW!
hahahah
 
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